Anything wrong with the V – IV chord sequence?

[Jean-Michel G]

A V chord followed by a IV chord (e.g. G – F in C major) is an extremely frequent chord sequence in contemporary music. You will find it in almost every single blues, in rock, in country, in ragtime, in folk, and even in pop.
But you will hardly find it in classical music or in jazz.

You may have stumbled across diagrams showing which chord(s) best follow this or that chord; I did post such a diagram myself there
As you can see, according to this diagram, the V can never go back to IV…

So what’s going on here?

During the period called “Common Practice Era” music gradually became increasingly goal orientated and chords acquired a specific “function” in the process of leaving the tonic chord for a harmonic journey that would eventually go back to the tonic. This is where the concept of chord “progression” comes from: the music progresses towards the tonic in a way that gradually increases tension until the final resolution.
The V chord has a very strong tendency to go to the I chord; the tendency of the IV chord to go to the tonic chord is almost as strong. But there is zero tendency to go from V to IV.
So the overall chord sequence IV – V – I is indeed a “progression”, but IV – V – IV is not; in fact, it’s called a “regression”!
So from a functional perspective V – IV doesn’t make much sense!

Another issue is that the sequence V – IV contains a “false relation”. Suppose the two chords are played in root position, as follows: (G, B, D) -> (F, A, C). There are many voice leading possibilities, but you will always have a tritone appearing somewhere in the transition because you will always have B in one chord and F in the other chord, and the interval F – B is a tritone. This is a very questionable voice leading decision because a tritone is always very dissonant.

Questionable does not necessarily mean bad: that dissonance may or may not be conspicuous.
Musicians have had various opinions about false relations in the course of music history. Very frequent at the end of the Renaissance and early Baroque period, it became more of an issue in the Classical period and was sometimes reintroduced during the Romantic era.

Contemporary music is not (strictly) functional anymore. Blues isn’t, pop certainly isn’t, etc. So chord hierarchies don’t matter as much as they used to in classical music.
Our ears have learned to tolerate the V – IV sequence.

Conclusion
This is another example where music theory does not prevent you from doing what you want to do, but where it draws your attention to things that may potentially be “unstylistic”. Put differently: use V – IV as much as you want you want, but be aware of the potential difficulties – particularly in vocal arrangements.

[Mark H]

Thanks J-M, fascinating discussion and food for thought while I drink my Saturday morning coffee.

It explains why, for a simple downhome older sounding blues, you can just hang on the V7 for two bars, which contains the ♭7 which is the IV’s root, rather than actually playing the IV chord at all.

Or to look at it another way, if you do play the IV, maybe that works because it’s a ♭7 interval down from the V, so there is that musical sounding relationship (to our bluesified ears) between the two.

I’ve seen a YouTube video that proposes the actual key of what we would call a “12 bar blues in G” is not G at all. That blew my mind slightly. I’ll see if I can find it and post a link, I think it’s germane to this discussion and you might find it interesting.

[Jean-Michel G]

Mark H wrote:

I’ve seen a YouTube video that proposes the actual key of what we would call a “12 bar blues in G” is not G at all. That blew my mind slightly. I’ll see if I can find it and post a link, I think it’s germane to this discussion and you might find it interesting.

Strictly speaking, that’s absolutely correct.
The (simplified) harmonic structure of a 12 bar blues is I7 – IV7 – I7 – V7 – IV7 – I7; for example A7 – D7 – A7 – E7 – D7 – A7.
But a dominant 7th chord cannot be a tonic chord – never. A7 belongs to the key of D.
The IV chord in a key cannot be a dominant 7th chord – never. D7 refers to the key of G.
And yes, E7 is the dominant 7th in the key of A, but it cannot resolve to A7…
So in fact, a twelve bar blues isn’t in any particular key at all!

We say we’re in the key of A7 to mean that our home chord is A7 – which is a somewhat loose usage of the word. And we spell the chords I7, IV7 and V7 to mean that the bass follows that progression.

…but pretending that our blues is in the “key of A” makes life a little easier!

[Mark H]

Hmmm.. I’ll have to chew on this for a while… 🙂

[Tom D]

Hello Jean-Michel:
I have two purposes in responding to you here. First, and foremost, is to simply thank you for sharing your incredible knowledge of music theory. It’s amazing both in the incisive content of what you share, as well as the structure of how you share it. I enjoy and appreciate it very much. 🙏🏻. The second purpose is to ask if you can comment on how it is that you’ve accumulated your knowledge and insights, as well as any recommendations you would have for those who wish to pursue depth of music theory knowledge and it’s application. Thanks again for all your posts, Tom

[Jean-Michel G]

HI Tom,
Thank you very much for the nice words! I really appreciate it.

That knowledge is simply the result of an accumulation over more than 50 years of musical practice.
I started with classical guitar when I was 12 or so, along with four years of basic music theory classes. Later I attended a two years master in harmony and composition.

I have a scientific background (an engineering background, to be precise) and I have an insatiable curiosity for things, which makes me look into the how’s (and sometimes even the why’s!). It also made me explore many different genres of music, not just classical. I can appreciate knowledge for its own sake (my scientific side), but I really like when I can apply theory to practice (my engineering side).

I think one of the reasons why people dislike (or sometimes even loathe) music theory is because it’s unfortunately often taught in a very confusing and illogical way. I will share my opinion on this subject in another post.

Thanks again for your reply!
Best regards,
JM

[Tom D]

Thanks JM. Your path is very interesting. I also have engineering degrees, spent a career in R&D both in industry and academe, love guitar and music, and have been called very curious😂. Curiosity is a great disposition. I appreciate how the AM Forum helps stimulate curiosity and creativity. Someday I’ll retire (for good) and spend more time on music. In the meantime, I appreciate the inspiration and “knowledge transfer” you and others on AM provide. All the best, Tom

[JohnStrat]

Jean-Michel
I second Tom D but most of it is talk out of my league at the moment. But that you take the time and trouble is very kind and greatly appreciated.
JohnStrat

[Mark H]

I found the YouTube discussion of 12 bar blues with dominant chords I mentioned earlier, link below. It made more sense to me today than when I first watched it over a year ago, having gained more familiarity with modes in the meantime.

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