Home › Forums › Music Theory › Modes and head scratching
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January 13, 2019 at 5:44 pm #122124
Hi guys,
I’m currently running up against a question that I suspect any beginner looking into music theory has asked… “what the heck is the point of modes?”
Example 1 –
C Ionian = C D E F G A B C
E Lydian = E F G A B C D EExample 2 –
G Ionian = G A B C D E F# G
C Lydian = C D E F# G A B CThe above two examples show scales with exactly the same notes and i can’t work out why say – C Ionian is functionally any different from E Lydian. At this point i i’ve watched hours of youtube videos on the subject and i’m not sure i get it at all. :-/ Most of the explanations i have seen are very vaugue on this point even though its the main reason people might be confused by this.
Generally speaking there is talk of playing these notes over chords and that this might determine if its C Ionian or E lydian, but surely if you are plying in E Lydian then all the chords in key of C would work but not all chords in Key of E….. so really you are just playing in C!
Often these guys also talk about the fact that the modes have different “feelings” and will compare say C Lydian to C Ionian – ok they feel different after all these scales have different notes…. but would C Lydian feel different to G Ionian? they have the same notes!
Much ink seems to have been spilled over this concept but the whole thing seems to be an unnecessary over-complication of something that should be simple. I’m sure i’m missing something here. Do any of you guys have a good handle on this concept and can point me in the right direction?
Thanks 🙂
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January 13, 2019 at 6:24 pm #122131
Waste of time. Just play with your own feeling. The best players in the world never even heard of such corksniffery. If SRV was still here you could ask him. “What mode do you use”. Then be ready for uncontrolled laughter. Really
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January 13, 2019 at 7:01 pm #122134
I know and use 2 “modes” all the time, but I don’t think of them as modes, just 2 different scales for 2 different purposes.
1. Ionian mode. This is simply the MAJOR SCALE. An all-purpose scale especially great for finding melodies, chord progressions, whatever. Inside this scale is the MAJOR PENTATONIC, also very useful. If you’re in the key of C, play the C scale – you’re in Ionian mode whether you know it or not. Relatively upbeat and positive feel.
2. Aeolian mode. Also called the NATURAL MINOR SCALE. The MINOR PENTATONIC is inside this scale. So if you’re in the key of C, then you can slide down 3 frets and play A minor scale, and you’re in the Aeolian mode, whether you know it or not. Great for bluesy, jazzy, melancholy feeling.
Forget the word “modes”; just think C major scale (Ionian) for positive upbeat feel, and A minor scale (Aeolian) for sadder, bluer feeling.
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January 13, 2019 at 7:35 pm #122141
Great answer Canada Moose. It is best to think in feelings or moods not modes like you say.
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January 13, 2019 at 8:23 pm #122146
Hi guys,
I’m currently running up against a question that I suspect any beginner looking into music theory has asked… “what the heck is the point of modes?”
Example 1 –
C Ionian = C D E F G A B C
E Lydian = E F G A B C D EExample 2 –
G Ionian = G A B C D E F# G
C Lydian = C D E F# G A B CThe above two examples show scales with exactly the same notes and i can’t work out why say – C Ionian is functionally any different from E Lydian. At this point i i’ve watched hours of youtube videos on the subject and i’m not sure i get it at all. :-/ Most of the explanations i have seen are very vaugue on this point even though its the main reason people might be confused by this.
Generally speaking there is talk of playing these notes over chords and that this might determine if its C Ionian or E lydian, but surely if you are plying in E Lydian then all the chords in key of C would work but not all chords in Key of E….. so really you are just playing in C!
Often these guys also talk about the fact that the modes have different “feelings” and will compare say C Lydian to C Ionian – ok they feel different after all these scales have different notes…. but would C Lydian feel different to G Ionian? they have the same notes!
Much ink seems to have been spilled over this concept but the whole thing seems to be an unnecessary over-complication of something that should be simple. I’m sure i’m missing something here. Do any of you guys have a good handle on this concept and can point me in the right direction?
Thanks
Tim
As a beginner, I would leave the study of modes for another day, it can bring a lot of confusion in the early days of your learning phase.
They are essential as your playing develops, but first, get a good grasp on the major & minor pentatonic scales and Brian has some lessons on the CAGED system as well that would be helpful as wellTalk to players like Larry Carlton and George Benson, great blues players on the jazz side of things, and they will tell you that modes are essential in what they do. Talk to studio musicians that are interacting with singers and experienced producers, piano/keyboard players, horn players and they will tell you that a good understanding of modes is a must
Listen to the Allman Brothers Band, and with the harmony that is involved in their songs, they very much approached the music from a modal point of view
As Moose said, the major & minor pentatonics are found within major and natural minor scales and the major scale is good for determining chord progressions and melodies.
In SRV’s case and many other players as well, the mixolydian mode would be used extensively as well as the 2 pentatonics scales; doubt that they would necessarily make a conscience decision to play modally but their experience and ear would take them there automatically
But for right now, there are probably more important things to be concerned with. I say this as someone who has read into jazz theory quite a bit and I still have my moments of not understanding it
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January 13, 2019 at 9:03 pm #122155
It took me at least a year to memorize the names of the 7 modes.. it was greek to me for years after,, just starting to acknowledge how they work .. if you just take your time understanding them it is best imho.. modes mean nothing if you can’t visualize basic theory,, learn the basic Chords major minor 7th chords and their scales patterns ..same time try to get a handle on the modes.. I doubt learning the modes is easy without knowing say diatonic scales, Octaves, arpeggios ,,chord structure..triads double stops 3rds 4ths 5ths 6ths what did I miss? oh learn chord progressions ,,I think the modes are easiest to acknowledge and put to use understanding basic guitar theory ,,again,,learn all the chords and scales major minor and positions on the fretboard.modes are basically forumlas within chord shapes and thier notes that make up their scales,, not so confusing,, simple if you learn basic theory first.
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January 13, 2019 at 9:14 pm #122158
Waste of time. Just play with your own feeling. The best players in the world never even heard of such corksniffery. If SRV was still here you could ask him. “What mode do you use”. Then be ready for uncontrolled laughter. Really
lol, James Jimmy Hendrix didn’t know modes either! .. I want to learn modes but only if it doesn’t interfere with my practicing! lol
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January 13, 2019 at 11:25 pm #122162
Thanks for the responses guys. Look while I understand (and it’s reasonable to say) that this is an advanced topic – and i agree that its easier to understand esoteric points if you have a better grounding in theory – this really just defers the question rather than answering it.
Per Canada Moose’s post I was aware that Aeolian is the same as the minor scale. To put things another way – is there a rational reason we differentiate between Am and C scales? The only difference between these scale is what note you start on, and while this is relevant to practising scales it isn’t relevant to actually playing songs/music. Or is it?
Sure many experienced players (esp. jazz players) seem to rely on modes, so based on this they presumably have a functional purpose. I’m trying to get to the bottom of what this is. In all the videos etc that i’ve seen and read – nobody seems to know. I’m a bit curious if this is an “emporer’s new clothes” scenario lol.
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January 14, 2019 at 12:06 am #122167
Per Canada Moose’s post I was aware that Aeolian is the same as the minor scale. To put things another way – is there a rational reason we differentiate between Am and C scales? The only difference between these scale is what note you start on, and while this is relevant to practising scales it isn’t relevant to actually playing songs/music. Or is it?
I think it’s totally relevant to playing music, that’s the only reason I use them.
As you say, C and Am are indeed the same scale with different starting points. So if I want to play upbeat positive rocking music, I use the C major (and major pentatonic scale). If I want a bluesy or melancholy feel, I use the A minor (and minor pentatonic scale).
I doh’t care about the theory at all (and don’t study or practice other modes), I only care about the emotion conveyed, so I learned the major and minor scales and use whichever one gives me the emotion I’m trying to convey. Ionian and Aeolian modes are the primary tools in my musical toolbox for expressing different emotions. They open up endless improvising possibilities. -
January 14, 2019 at 4:12 am #122176
The main thing is that modes not only relate to scales but mainly to chords!
In C major, every starting note you begin with, belongs to a specific Chord. You can find these chords by “harmonizing” each note in the scale (putting thirds (in this case 4 notes per chords, to obtain the 7th chords) over the tone and playing them simutaniously) You could use only 3 notes per chords but then you would’nt have the 7th in them.
(I.) C Ionian: C E G B -> Cmaj7
(II.) D Dorian: D F A C -> Dm7
(III) E Phygrian: E G B D -> Em7
(IV.) F Lydian: F A C E -> Fmaj7
(V.) G Myxolydian G B D F -> G7
(VI.) A Aeolian: A C E G -> Am7
(VII.) B Locrian: B D F A -> Bm7b5That’s why these chords fit the C major scale. The chord notes are parts of the modes starting with the root.
For instance, try to play G myxolydian over the V Chord, that would fit perfectly (Allman Brothers).
Try to play D Dorian over Dm (Santana) ….If you talk about the blues-progression in the key of C major, you use the I-Chord, the IV-Chord and the V-Chord, that would be C F and G. You could change the mode for every chord, but you could also stay in one mode for the whole progression. You only play the modes of a scale to emphasize specific notes belonging to the chord that lies underneath.
Most of these theoretical things automatically happen when you improvise, and you don’t think about the theory.
Eric
Eric
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January 14, 2019 at 5:58 am #122183
Modes can be used over specific chords and you can change modes for different chords as Eric says and it’s done frequently in jazz. A mode can be used as a “key” also. You can only hear a mode if the chords underneath support it. In rock, modal chord progressions tend to be simple and highlight the uniqueness of the overlying mode. If you put too many chords in the progression it starts to sound like the parent key, either the full major or minor . Eg., Santana is famous in Oye Como Va for riffing over a Amin7/Dmaj progression. This doesn’t come from the key of A minor which would have a D minor in the key. The parent key here is the G major which has Amin7 as the 2 and Dmaj as the 5. There is no G major in the progression and the song has a tonal center around the A min7. The progression is from the second major mode, A Dorian. A Dorian is the minor pentatonic but with added notes of a major 2nd and major 6th, which gives it a unique sound which will fit perfectly over the simple progression. You could play all the notes of the G major scale but you will have to resolve phrases frequently on the A note. Learning A dorian is having the notes of G major under your fingers from the perspective of the 2nd note as the new root. There are only 7 shapes, 1 for each note of the major modes, so it is possible to learn this. You can also think of them as minor or major pentatonic boxes with 2 extra colour notes as Brian often explains in his lessons. Ionian, Aeolian, Myxolydian and Dorian occur frequently in blues and rock and are worth learning, eventually.
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January 14, 2019 at 6:56 am #122185
Here’s a great lesson of Brian’s on a particular mode that might help your understanding. Great lesson.
Allman Brothers Style Mixolydian Scale Guitar Lesson – EP080
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January 14, 2019 at 2:06 pm #122208
Also check out Brian’s Santana style lesson. It’s based on the Dorian scale. As for me, I have now learned all the modes – just did it as a mental exercise, but now I use them for jamming. Download the mode jamtracks by Quist from Youtube, and you will find it easy to just jam along in any mode. Start off just playing the scale, then branch out with some licks of your own.
Sunjamr Steve
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January 14, 2019 at 3:38 pm #122213
Ok thanks guys I will check out those lessons.
I think this might be a key point…..
Charjo wrote:” You can only hear a mode if the chords underneath support it. [ … ] If you put too many chords in the progression it starts to sound like the parent key, either the full major or minor
So maybe the mode is using a piece of music to highlight/center on an aspect of the parent key? So F Lydian highlights the F aspect of the C major scale. hmm food for thought.
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January 14, 2019 at 5:50 pm #122221
Tim,
It’s really critical. It’s better to not have the tonic chord of the parent key in the modal progression. If you start on the tonic chord or end on the tonic chord it will sound like the parent key of the tonic chord. You have to establish a new tonal center.
John
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January 14, 2019 at 5:39 pm #122216
tIM , NO BIG DEAL MAN..YOULEARN THE MODES WHEN AND IF AS i SAID, LEARN THE CHORDS AND SCALES FIRST INSIDE OUT!,, THE MODE THEORY IS JUST THE GREEKS WAY
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January 14, 2019 at 5:45 pm #122219
Yeah just gonna store it away in the vault maybe for some other time. I got a lot of playing to do. If it isn’t anything more than the monthly challenges I’ll be completely satisfied for now on I believe until I finally don’t enjoy playing. I hope I never get to that point though. Lol
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January 14, 2019 at 5:45 pm #122220
Yeah just gonna store it away in the vault maybe for some other time. I got a lot of playing to do. If it isn’t anything more than the monthly challenges I’ll be completely satisfied for now on I believe until I finally don’t enjoy playing. I hope I never get to that point though. Lol
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January 14, 2019 at 5:56 pm #122224
James, I wait too long long to start the monthly challenges lol.. this time I’m going to start sooner ..think we need to practice our 4rds and 6ths on ep280 ..i’ll look now check again lol
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January 14, 2019 at 6:02 pm #122225
okay ,I GOT TO REMEMBER, IT IS 242 ROY ORBISON AND USING 3RDS OR 6THS..I’LL TRY TO USE BOTH AND GOING TO CHECK OUT 242 NOW! BLESS YOUR HEARTS!
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January 14, 2019 at 8:51 pm #122244
There are two different things going on when people talk about modes. The first has to do with the tonal center of a piece of music. Take, for example, Norwegian Wood. Chords are D C D G D in the verse. D is definitely home here, but the chords and melody fit best with the notes of a G major scale. This section of the song is in D mixolydian. That tells you both the home note, and the notes that are most likely to be used. But it’s just a name.
The other way of using modes comes from the chord/scale approach to improvisation that became core to University curricula in the seventies, and plagues the jazz world. This is the idea that every chord has an associated scale with it, and that the chord and the scale almost always share the same root. Thus, when playing a G13 chord, you should be playing G mixolydian. Then when it resolves to a Cmaj7, you switch to C Ionian, and then go to A Aoliean when it goes to A minor. I know all the modes, and I think this approach is just stupid. worse, it tends to make players who all end up sounding alike. I have no use for this at all, and think there are much better ways to learn how to improvise.
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February 2, 2019 at 9:12 pm #123859
Modes are useful and you probably use and you (definitely) hear them all the time….
If you can hear the difference between songs that sound major and songs that sound minor then you’ve been appreciating modes all along.
Is there a point of playing in the key of A Minor (A Aeolean mode) if it’s scale uses the same notes as the key of C Major (C Ionian mode)? Yes. Modes provide a tune’s emotional “feel”. Some songs have a Latin feel or a Spanish feel or an Oriental feel because of the mode in which the song is being played.
A more important question would be “how do I use modes to get the “feel” I’m looking for”? That’s where chord progressions come in. If you play a I-IV-V progression from a diatonic scale (such as C Major) It’ll have one feel, If you, instead, choose to play a vi-ii-iii progression the “feel” will be different. Try it.
If you really want a clear understanding, try playing a vii-ii-IV progression. 😉 Same key. Different mode.
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