Paddyboy wrote:

Does anybody know why Brian would call the Eb major, D# major? in Aprils jam track? I know they are the same chord but the key of Eb only has 3 flats in it while the key of D# has 5 sharps and 2 double Sharps.

I was always taught to always go with the key that has the least amount of sharps and flats when deciding which name to place on it. the enharmonic key to C minor is Eb major ( one and one-half steps higher than the minor Key C minor)

Brian says, “The chords should be as follows: C minor, F minor, C minor, D# major, F major, C minor”
I’m saying, “The chords should be as follows: C minor, F minor, C minor, Eb major, F major, C minor”

hummm….just wondering

The other site I am studying and practicing using the double circle of fifths,, outside circle are the major chords the inside circle are the relative minor chords… you will notice YES YOU STAND CORRECT the circle of fifths diagram Eb rather D# and it is explained as you stated

You are right, it should correctly be Eb major, but it’s definitely the same grabbing as D#. I learnt the simple rule – counting the chromatic scale upwards = #, down = b.

Dieter

As this is in the Key of C minor, the numbering from 1 to 7 is Cm, Ddim, D#major, Fm, Gm, G#major and A#major. If playing the note in a melody line it would depend on whether you were descending or ascending, D-E (D#), E-D (Eb). It depends on the Key you are in. The key of flat major scales (Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, Bb) use flats. The major and minor chord scales use sharps. So D#major would be in key for the Key of C minor.

In my opinion (not a theory expert) D# doesn’t exist in the key of C minor. It has to be Eb. The key signature for Cm is 3 flats and the relative major key is Eb. Looking at the C minor scale we have C D Eb F Ab Bb, not C D D# F Ab Bb. It break all the scale rules having two notes with the same note name (D and D#).

Any key signature that has double #’s or double flats is considered a “theoretical” key and is never used. The D# major chord is D# F## A#. That is just too confusing. Now I know Brian knows way more theory than me, but calling a chord D# is just really confusing.

Brian simply made an error that makes no difference. Since the track is in C minor, and Eb is the relative major chord, it should be called Eb maj. But D#maj is the same thing.

Also, its important not to confuse scales with chords. Its true that its unlikely anyone would ever use a D# major scale. It’s possible, however, in some contexts for an individual chord to more appropriately be called a D# maj.

Here’s one example I am just making up. Suppose you have a song that is strongly in E major. It then is moving to the relative minor through a series of dominant chords. In this instance you might have a progression that goes E – D#maj, G#7, C#min. Because C#minor is the relative minor of E, you would strongly want to call it C#. The preceding chords would also be named with their sharp names, because the D# and G# exist in E and in its relative minor, and keeping this relation preserves the strong II V Imin of the progression. So, what the chord is named depends on its context.

I have never seen a II – V – I (or i) progression in a song. maybe they are out there, but I haven’t seen one. Do you have any examples? ii V I happens all day long, but II V I looks like you are in another key (where V is actually the I). Ha, now I am confusing myself.

Interesting, having consulted the internet the Key of C minor has D, Eb or Ddim, Eb. Agree, why would you have two notes the same such as Ddim and D# in the same scale. The Key Chord Chart that I have been using will now be redundant and replaced. Not sure why there is an inconsistency. We know in acoustics D#,Eb are the same, but in chord theory it does spell out Eb. Would be of interest to know why D# was used.

Kevin E: Dream a Little Dream of Me, by Mama Cass (or Doris Day) the second line (night dreams seem to whisper I love you) goes C B7 E7 A A7. Whether that’s a II V I in a key change would depend on how you analyze it, and the E7 is optional.

Another example is Sweet Georgia Brown, which opens A7 D7 G7 C, a VI II V I pattern. The bridge to Rhythm changes is III7 VI7 II7 V7 I (I Got Rhythm, Flintstones Theme, etc…).

LaurelC: Not all scales have seven notes in them. Easy example is the pentatonic scale, which has five notes. The whole tone scale has six notes. There are also common scales with 8 notes in them. Barry Harris, for example, expounds the use of what he calls the diminished sixth scale: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7. A dominant bebop scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7. A diminished scale is 1 2 b3 4 b5 #5 6 7. In these scales, it is necessary to double one note.

I only looked at Sweet Ga Brown. It certainly looks like the intro is in one key (the relative major) and then goes to the relative minor for verses. Ha, I looked at the images for sweet ga brown tunes — and it has numerous, numerous takes on it.

The one on the left (in the attachment) has a lot of chromatic changes in the intro, while the one on the right in in G, but even uses that V of V (D7 A7) move. Like I said, I am not a theory expert, but I don’t see what you are seeing in Sweet Ga Brown. It looks like modulation to me.

A secondary dominant – V of V is not necessarily a modulation. In the chorus of Sweet Georgia Brown, like the bridge to Rhthym Changes, the back cycling through dominant chords is not modulation because the chords don’t establish a new tonal center. Instead, they all lead back to the original tonic without ever landing somewhere else that is stable.

Oh, and in these older tunes, people typically disregard the intros and go straight to the chorus. I know this song mainly as the Harlem Globetrotters theme as a kid. I don’t think I’ve ever heard the intro. Same with Honeysuckle Rose, which I recently recorded. I heard a Louis Armstrong version recently with an intro, and it was news to me. Waller’s own recording doesn’t include it.