Home › Forums › Discuss Anything But Politics › Question on string length and string scale tension.
- This topic has 10 replies, 5 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 7 months ago by Vorocnan.
-
CreatorTopic
-
September 21, 2019 at 7:37 am #144675
I was admiring Brian’s new Fender the Meteora and the strings appear to taken further back before going through the body than in a tremelo design bridge. Normally with acoustics the the shorter the scale the less tension so 24″ has less string tension than the usuall tension you get on 25 1/2″ inch scale on most Fenders, so does taking the length of the string further back to the tail of the guitar add more tension if the scale remains 25 1/2 inches. Thanks to anyone who can answer this one.
-
CreatorTopic
-
AuthorReplies
-
-
September 21, 2019 at 9:35 am #144679
Scale length is from nut to bridge. The distance from bridge to tailpiece, or from nut to tuning peg has no effect on string tension. It’s possible that it has other, subtle effects. For example, violin builders tend to use a distance to the tail piece that is 1/6th the scale length. They claim this makes for good sympathetic vibrations. Some people also think that a longer overall length makes the string more compliant, thus easier to bend although set at the same tension. There are people who claim that the extra mass of a longer run creates more stability. (Notice that the last two claims are contradictory, more compliance means less stability, but I have seen posts by people claiming both.)
-
September 21, 2019 at 11:47 am #144684
Thanks Duffy I was watching Andertons Pete and the Captain reviewing the Meteora and Pete at 4.40 mins comments on the off axis string through (low E longer) and the Captain makes a remark about longer string tension which had me wondering if I had it wrong.
Vorocnan
. -
September 21, 2019 at 3:51 pm #144685
You are totally right. Say you have two strings fastened at each end, and one string is 2 meters long and the other is 0.5 m long, then you tune them both to middle C. The 0.5 m string will be relatively easy to push down, whereas the 2 m string will be hard to push down. That’s why a lot of people like smaller acoustics….easier to bend notes.
Sunjamr Steve
-
September 22, 2019 at 4:20 pm #144737
Yes, I was referring to the physics of strings, not the issue where you could technically have a 30′ long string passing over a nut and a bridge which were only 1′ apart. Obviously the string will be able to slide over the bridge and nut when you press down on it. And that’s why Leo Fender designed his guitars so that all the tuners were in line with the grooves in the nut.
Sunjamr Steve
-
-
September 22, 2019 at 7:06 am #144715
Hi Steve but in your example you appear to be using to different scale lengths of 0’5 to 2 metres.
We need to have the same scale length for both bits of string but using different lengths of string over say a 25.5 inch scale. So it would need say a 30 inch piece and a 40 inch pieece stretched over two bits of wood to simulate a 25.5 scale.
Probably string isn’t the best for this it would need two identical guage steel strings of different lengths.
As Duffy says Some people also think that a longer overall length makes the string more compliant, thus easier to bend although set at the same tension. There are people who claim that the extra mass of a longer run creates more stability. (Notice that the last two claims are contradictory, more compliance means less stability, but I have seen posts by people claiming both.)
So there appears to be a bit of confusion on this.
Vorocnan
-
September 22, 2019 at 8:10 am #144716
Found this post on another forum which is interesting talking about afterlength of the string.
DaveS
To paraphrase Ken Parker, ,,,only two things can change the dynamic tension of a string, break angle and afterlength. (He uses “dynamic tension” although I prefer “feel”, since “dynamic tension” can be confused with string tension …..different.) IMO afterlength or really overall string length is the bigger contributor. Lowering break angle at the bridge reduces the downward force and can certainly alter how an archtop is made (ie lighter…see Steve Grimes & his “low-stress” archtops).
With afterlength, my best visualization is a short piece of wire and a long piece, both stretched over a pair of “saddles” a foot apart, tensioned and anchored at their ends so region between the saddles plucks the same pitch. Plucking or stretching the closely anchored wire, it feels tight…only a short amount of wire to accomadate the stretching. Do the same on the long wire and it “feels” much more supple … twice the length of wire to take up the stretching. This translates to the distances between the bridge and the tailpiece, or nut and machine. Longer & the string feels more yielding. (Jimmy D’Aquisto used the analogy of two rope bridges over the same gorge… one closely anchored & one long …and a guy in the center easily getting the second to move up & down, but not so easily the first.)
A couple of examples… John Monteleone keeps afterlength fairly long and actually reversed the typical D’Angelico “long bass/short treble” afterlength tailpiece because he wanted to make the bass strings feel less sloppy and the treble strings more supple. I understand Ken Parker’s archtops stayed with six-in-line style head was partly for the same reasons (as well as reduced breakover, less weight and obviously great aesthetics)
Anyway, I agree that lots of things contribute to how a guitar plays….. great, aren’t they?? -
September 22, 2019 at 9:02 am #144718
All sounds like gobbledegook to me in the post from the other forum, scale length is the only thing you need to concern yourself with here, the total length of the string is errelevant imho.
..Billy..
-
September 22, 2019 at 5:10 pm #144742
Take a tug of war situation one with a long rope and another with a shorter one. If someone pulls at right angles from the middle point on each rope they have much more leverage over the tension when pulling on the long rope than the short. That’s basic physics. So whilst the Bridge will add some support it will not resist 100%of the longitudinal strain thus surely extra length will reduce the power necessary to deflect the string sideways albeit that the scale length of two are identical?
-
September 22, 2019 at 5:58 pm #144750
Take a tug of war situation one with a long rope and another with a shorter one. If someone pulls at right angles from the middle point on each rope they have much more leverage over the tension when pulling on the long rope than the short. That’s basic physics. So whilst the Bridge will add some support it will not resist 100%of the longitudinal strain thus surely extra length will reduce the power necessary to deflect the string sideways albeit that the scale length of two are identical?
Yes that’s how I read it, the jazz guitar website is also right not gobledegook as Billy puts it DaveS of that site above mentiones Monteleone he was the Luthier knopfler wrote a song about I believe. The article above says he keeps the afterlength long A couple of examples… John Monteleone keeps afterlength fairly long and actually reversed the typical D’Angelico “long bass/short treble” afterlength tailpiece because he wanted to make the bass strings feel less sloppy and the treble strings more supple. I understand Ken Parker’s archtops stayed with six-in-line style head was partly for the same reasons (as well as reduced breakover. Brian’s new guitar has the longer bass strings than the treble and I wonder if would help with barr chords and bending or maybe allow a heavier guage string that those archtop jazz guitarist like.
-
September 23, 2019 at 1:51 am #144764
From jazz times.com archive
John Monteleone continues to push the envelope with modifications in tailpiece design, internal bracing and sound hole porting: from his scrolled, ornate Grand Artist Tri-Port, with its futuristic retro design and its two topside sound holes, to the more traditionally sculpted Radio Flyer, with its dulcet immediacy and swelling presence. “I employ an adjustable ebony tailpiece similar to Jimmy’s to fine-tune the down tension of the top. The next thing with the tailpiece you can do is adjust its length. And therefore you begin to affect the string feel or tension. And ‘feel’ is a very subtle activity, which is one of the reasons I reversed the angle of the tailpiece from the old D’Angelico stairstep, where the bass strings are longer and the treble strings are shorter, because I found that when the treble strings were longer, they tended to be more supple, so this allows the high end to be a little thicker-not quite as steely or tight. Conversely, longer bass strings tended to be too flappy, and in order to tighten up and focus the bottom I made them shorter.”
.
-
-
AuthorReplies
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.