Non Diatonic Chords

[Ken T]

Hi everyone, ( from Buckinghamshire, England, by the way)

I am just beginning the guitar journey ( aged 62) and these lessons are invaluable.
A question for Brian or anyone is how do some chords which theoretically do not fit in the Key manage to sound OK. I noticed a few of these in some of Brian’s lessons. Is there a rule which can be applied or is it a case of ” if it sounds good then it is good” ?

Thanks,

Ken

[charjo]

Ken,
You’re not the first to ask. You’re right, rule 1 is it has to sound good, otherwise it involves a whole lot of music theory. Duffy P has kindly written a 6 part series on Chord substitutions. They can be found on pages 4 & 5 of the Music Theory section of the forum or search “chord substitutions”.
John

[charjo]

Just came across this Duffyism as well, about borrowing chords from parallel scales, ie. in the key of A major the VI is an F#major but you can substitute the vi from the A minor scale, ie. Fmaj. He calls it a “modal interchange”. It works because the substituted chord will always contain one or two of the chord tones of the original chord.

from Duffy’s thread

“In Lovely Lisa, the move to F is called a modal interchange, or a borrowed chord. Basically, we can look at A and A minor as parallel, and thus interchangeable. In A, the scale includes an F#, but if we move to the parallel minor, the chord is F. It works smoothly because they have A as the common tone.

All of that is another way of saying it sounds good. But one guide for knowing that a borrowed chord will sound good is by looking at the related keys: For A you have the F# relative minor, the A parallel minor, and the F# major (which is parallel to the relative minor). You can move to any chord in any of those scales that shares a common tone with the chord you are moving from. It will almost always sound cool.

Another example is the move to G from E in the JJ Cale lesson, or in After Midnight. E minor is parallel minor to E major. The G chord appears in the Key of e minor, and it shares the B with the E major chord.”
John

[sunburst]

You may mean the term non diatonic progression.. i do not think i ever heard the term non diatonic chord/ ..perhapsa you meant altered chord..anyway, I suggest understand basic jazz chords 7ths and thier suspended augmented dimished altered notes within the basic chord structure/(R357)also basic jazz chord progressions. I am getting into it more this winter season.You can play lot of great sounding jazz classics learning basic jazz guitar chords

[charjo]

John,
A non-diatonic chord would be a chord where one or more of the intervals in the chord are not derived from the underlying scale of the key. Putting such a chord in a progression would create a non-diatonic progression.

John

[sunburst]

charjo wrote:

John,
A non-diatonic chord would be a chord where one or more of the 1, 3 or 5 intervals are not derived from the underlying scale of the key.
John

yes understand, altered chord.. i guess I’ll have to search the term non diatonic chord..I just know I never heard the term other than playing diatonic scales and progressions. But if the term is used, I will be learning something new today too 🙂 it’s all good John, thanks for sharing!

[sunburst]

[Ken T]

Sunburst,

Thanks for this.

Ken

[sunburst]

I see such a term now on youtube also found this to be interesting ,perhaps help for ken.. anyway, got to sign off ,, major engine work my p/u truck is ready so is my visa card..shessh!..I’ll be snowed in today practicing when i get back!

[Ken T]

Thanks for all the feedback guys.
As a beginner I guess what I mean by a non diatonic chord is one that is not based on notes that are part of a key.
Looking at it from the other way any notes that exist in a C Major scale for example are diatonic to C Major. Therefore any chords built using pitches of the C Major scale (CMaj7, Dmin7, Emi7, FMaj7, G7, Amin7, B7b5) are also diatonic to C Major.
Non-Diatonic refers to any notes or chords that are not native to the key.
I have had a snoop around the web and found this as well.

Quote:
” A chord can be non-diatonic by structure or by context. If you are playing in C Major and you see a D7 (spelled D-F#-A-C) then it would be non-diatonic by context, since the D7 is native to the key of G Major. However, if it were a Ddim7 (spelled D-F-Ab-B) it would be non-diatonic by structure, since the fully-diminished chord is not found in any key”. ( Not my words).

Sorry I might have opened a can of worms here.
I bow to the more experienced chaps in this regard.

Thanks again for the input.

KenT

[charjo]

John,
I think “altered” chord refers to a chromatic altering of the 5, 9, 11 or 13th interval and is used mostly in jazz. Eg, an E7 is diatonic to the key of A and can be extended diatonically to an E9, E11 or E13. The E7 and all the diatonic extensions can be “altered” by chromatically raising or lowering (ie. moving by one fret) the 5, 9, 11 or 13th interval, eg . the “Hendrix” chord, E7#9.
John

[charjo]

Ken,
I’m pretty sure you understand the concept of diatonic. Borrowed or substituted chords that don’t fit the key are where Duffy’s rules come in. I think the underlying basis is that the borrowed chord shares one or two tones with the diatonic chord.
John

[charjo]

Correction in my second post on this thread, the vi of A major is F# minor but you can substitute the VI from the parallel scale,A minor, ie. F major. Both chords contain an A tone. Thanks Don D.
John

[ChordGuy]

Music is about ‘Tension’ and ‘Resolution’. Tension is what moves a song along, like a verb. We can achieve tension in many ways. Using a non-diatonic chord or notes are one. Altered chords, subs, extensions etc. are another.

Gordo

[sunburst]

If only Jimmy Hendrix was here on this board,, we would chuckle..honestly, just practice what is here, If you need to answer you own questions after the fact,, maybe that’s the Buckingham way who knows! lol.. perhaps you should do the walk and not so much the talk,, maybe i’d relate..nowonder no response from Brian.. seriously.what was this topic all about anyway? First post first question but than to answer your own question,, I guess you and the other newbie will eventually become regulars as well? I’ll keep tabs too! enjoy!

[sunburst]

Ken, I have to say unless Brian answers we’re both going to be searching for that anwer! lol happy Buckingham palace holidays! I guess you folks celebrate that if not do celebrate xmas or other over there! I want to at least thank you for bringing attention to me someyhing new to me non organaic chords..wait non chromatic..no no none diatonics chords to play!! lol

[Bob S]

Ken,

Just to follow up on what ChordGuy said, about tension and release. In any key there is only one dominant chord and it really wants to resolve back to the I chord (tension and release). In the key of C, that chord is the G7 (the five chord). If I am playing a vi-ii-V-I in C, which is a common progression, the chords would be Am7-Dm7-G7-CM7. All of these chords are diatonic to C. But another way to look at the Am7 chord is as a five of the Dm7. But a minor chord acting as a five does not have as strong a resolution as the associated major chord. So the minor chord can be altered to become A7 which is non-diatonic. I saw an old video by the famous jazz guitarist Joe Pass, where he made the statement that any chord in a progression can be made into a dominant. It must of been important because I think he said it twice. I don’t know if this is what is going on in the case your looking at, but might be worth a look.

Bob

[sunburst]

I am sure Joe Pass would definitely have chuckled here too! Seriously though all considered, I ‘ll keep all therof and anything relevant in respect to the question,, but like Brian once answered a valid question, his reply was to play an example.. otherwise ,How can we know how to answer if the questionaire has more knowledge about the question than I thought? Anyway, no biggie, all I know if any member here is practicing EP233 it is a toughy! it ain’t as easy as I originally thought,,but I am almost there! enjoy and cheerio cheers to bloody Buckingham in England Ken T!welcome to AM!

[charjo]

Bob, I think the concept you are referring to is called “secondary dominant”. I’m sure Joe Pass understood it intimately and would not chuckle at our attempts at understanding theory. To follow up on Chord Guy’s statement above, the greatest tension in music would be the interval of a semi-tone and the tritone (or diminished 5th interval). The tritone is found within every dominant chord between the major third and the flat 7. The strongest resolution in a chord progression is from the dominant to the tonic, eg., G7 to C. The resolution allows each of the B & F of the G7 (the tritone) to resolve one semi-tone, to the C & E of the tonic. A Secondary Dominant is a Dominant 7th chord that is the dominant of a diatonic chord other than the tonic. Consider a chord in a progression other than the tonic to be a target chord. If you insert it’s dominant 7 chord in front of the target chord it will build and release tension. This dominant 7 chord is pulled from the key of the target chord. Even where the V chord of a minor key is a minor chord, it is changed to a V7 of the same root.
eg. just to show the contrast, play the diatonic progression C – Em – Am, it doesn’t create much tension but if you target an A minor chord and precede it with it’s secondary dominant, the progression would be C – E7- Am, a much more satisfying resolution. I think I’ve seen this in some of Brian’s gospel backing tracks.
A lot of theory, I know, but I find it very satisfying to understand where things are pulled from. If I’ve said anything wrong, I’d be happy if any of you theory guys, like Chord Guy or Duffy, step in and correct me.
John

[Bob S]

John,

Yes I was talking secondary dominants. I think we are saying the same thing, although if not I would appreciate hearing from you as to the difference.

As to Joe Pass not chuckling, I am not sure.

Bob

[sunburst]

I do remember something about this theory @ fretjam.com ,,think i’ll go over there and try to get the link.. but an example would be good.. anyway plenty good specific and example if i can find the link copy and paste..

[sunburst]

[Don D.]

Good morning, came to see what was making all the noise and found an interesting example I think I can add to.

John (charjo) mentioned: […] just to show the contrast, play the diatonic progression C – Em – Am, it doesn’t create much tension but if you target an A minor chord and precede it with it’s secondary dominant, the progression would be C – E7- Am, a much more satisfying resolution. […]

To take it a step further, replace half of the bar with C in it with B7. That’s a half step motion from the C and then it ascends a perfect fourth, just like a secondary dominant.

If—and I don’t recommend it necessarily—you throw another secondary dominant under the B7, you’d have F#7, an imperfect flat 5 sub for the C.It’s just too much work. I think those secondary dominant moves appear in a lot of ragtime.

Don D.

[ChordGuy]

Joe Pass means that any chord can be proceeded by its dominant. eg. in a ii-V7-l the ii (a minor chord) can be replaced with a II7 chord or even use both. In the key of C this would be Dminor7, G7, C, could be played Dm7, D7, G7, C.
Now the D7 could also be proceeded by its dominant giving, A7, D7, G7, C. (etc.) This can lead to many possibilities.

Gordo

[Author]

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