Home › Forums › Music Theory › Natural minor and dorian mode
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November 16, 2016 at 10:54 am #55433
I’ve just been watching the latest lesson on the dorian mode (EP178) having just watched the lesson on the natural minor scale (EP022). This has got me a little confused as both work over minor keys.
Could you technically mix both scales at the same time and it work? If not, does it depend on all the chords you are using or just the style you want to portray?
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November 16, 2016 at 11:56 am #55438
The answer depend on the effect you are going for.
A natural minor Has a b c D e f g a.
A Dorian has a b c d e f# g a.So the only difference is whether it’s ok to play the f or the f# or both. That will depend on the music, the style, and your taste.
Keep in mind that there are several minor scales: natural, harmonic, melodic, and jazz. In a minor, harmonic sharps the g; in melodic, the f and g are both sharper, but only ascending not descending; in jazz minor the f and g are both sharper, and both ascending and descending.
So Dorian is pretty close.
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November 16, 2016 at 3:56 pm #55454
@Jon G, I’m sure Duffy is right but that’s at a whole different level than I’m at currently. I think, in general, you wouldn’t mix these modes. I hope I’m not telling you stuff you already know in this long explanation.
The way I understand the major modes is they are used to solo in a given key when the chord you are emphasizing is not the I of the key.
Take the key of C, the chords are C, Dmin,Emin, F, G, Amin, Bdim, C.
Take Brian’s Santana lesson but let’s transpose it from the key of B to the key of C. The chord progression you would be playing over would then be D min and G major. These are the ii and V of the key of C. There is no I chord in the progression, you are emphasizing the ii and this minor chord is the tonal center of the song, you would resolve most of your licks to the D note. Any note you play in C major will fit but your licks will sound more normal if you resolve to the D. That is playing in D dorian, the C major scale but started on the 2nd note.
In EP 022 the chord progression is Amin, Dmin, E min, A min. Those are the vi, ii, iii of the key of C but again there is no I chord in the progression. You are emphasizing the vi chord as the tonal centre and playing the notes of C major will fit as these chords all come from C major but again you emphasize the A note or 6th of the C major scale. That is playing in the Aeolian mode or natural minor scale.
There are different progressions that will suit the Dorian mode and others that will suit the Aeolian mode. I think that’s how we would generally use these modes.
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November 17, 2016 at 12:34 am #55474
When using a scale/mode over a progression of chords you may want to consider the other chords in the progression.
A One, Four, Five progression from The A natural minor scale would be Aminor Dminor Eminor
A One, Four, Five progression from the A Dorian mode would be Aminor DMajor EminorSantana often used a four chord as a major chord making the Dorian mode a good choice for melody/solos.
Songs in minor keys often employ a Five chord that is a Dominant 7 type chord which is the Five chord of the Harmonic minor scale. it would be Aminor Dminor Emajor(dom7).
Note. When extending these chords to include the 7th more differences will appear. eg. The chords of A Harmonic minor will be (these also will be the sounds you get while soloing with the harmonic minor scale, even over triads)
i Aminor/Major 7
ii Bmin7flat5
III CMajor7sharp5
iv Dminor7
V E7
VI FMajor7
VII G#dim7Hope this helps
Gordo -
November 17, 2016 at 4:00 am #55481
Thank you guys. I think its all a bit above my level for the moment but your answers do make it a little clearer. They also make it very clear to me why the pentatonic scale is the most commonly used one!
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November 17, 2016 at 5:56 am #55484
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January 27, 2017 at 8:28 am #60785
Hello guys! I also have a quesion:
Is it possible to use a dorian scale in a song that starts with a Major chord? Samba pa ti from Carlos Santana for example is composed in G Major. Is it possible to use the 2nd step from G Major und Play the dorian scale of A minor?
Thanks and greetings from Germany! -
January 27, 2017 at 10:03 am #60813
@feppi, Samba Pa Ti looks like it’s in the key of G major. The notes of A dorian are all the same notes of G major, just starting on the second tone or A. It looks to me like the solo is in G major but using the second third and fourth positions of G major. The second position of G major is the home position for A dorian but to play in A dorian you would be resolving licks to the A note and I don’t think he does that. I see a lot of licks end on the D and other notes. The G major chord seems to be the home base of the song. In A dorian, the Amin7 would be the home base chord or tonic centre of the song. I know it’s all very confusing, hope I’ve got this right.
John -
January 27, 2017 at 3:53 pm #60966
Thanks for your quick answer. I’ve got a problem with the scale that Brian used in his lesson EP178 (Dorian mode). He added simply two notes to the minor scale and it works but his jam track is in C minor. Thats not a Problem for me I understand that Point. But what if a song is in a minor chord, how do I find the scale that Brian used in his EP178?
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January 27, 2017 at 4:19 pm #60970
I watched the lesson again. I think now I understand the point that you mean. Theoretically I couldp play Braians A-minor Scale with the two extra notes over a song in G Major (of course only if the mood fits). Maybe Samba pa ti is not really in the key of Gmajor…
Thanks for your help!
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