Home › Forums › Guitar Techniques and General Discussions › Modes Darby)
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January 23, 2013 at 4:45 am #4498
Still haven’t wrapped my mind around modes, completely. For example, using Mixo over a dominate chord…I understand it’s b/c of the b7, but why wouldn’t you use C over a G7, instead of the 5th degree?
Moved this topic
Modes are a very large topic. Although the notes are the same in both the starting points are different. This will affect your phrasing and choice of notes in melodys and solos. Eg. The 7th of G7 is F, it wants to resolve to the third of C which is E. This will also usually place the chord tone on a downbeat (1 or 3) as well.
Thinking of the F as the 4th of C implies no resolution is needed.
Modes can also give a new flavour to a chord or progression. C lydian over a C chord has a #4, not a chord tone so no conflicts. C dorian over C has the b3 and b7, both blue notes and common in Blues, rock and pop music.
Modes can also be harmonized like any scale yielding ideas for chord progressions and substitutions.
Practicing modes will help train you hands and ears too.Hope this helps Gordo
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January 23, 2013 at 5:38 am #9372
Thanks for reply, I read that twice and will have to chew on it a bit to fully comprehend. Like I said, still trying to wrap my mind around modes and find myself sometimes tearing a lick apart or trying to figure how to steer where I want to be for next chord instead of just playing. Before I know it, an hour or two has passed…hoping it pays off later down the road though!
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When I put a G7 into my looper and use the blues scales, the b7 sounds more like a passing tone so I normally hammer on, slide, or bend from half step down to the major 3rd. It just seemed that since C already has the b7 of G, my ear was drawn more to it.
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I keep picking the root note and then match it against the note in each mode to try and develop my ear, but I guess I’m not there yet. 🙁
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On the bright side, though, I think I’ve figured out how Carlos Santana got his sound with the Phrygian. 🙂 -
January 23, 2013 at 7:15 am #9374
The dominate 7th of a chord should sound like you want to move it. Maybe better to loop a plain G or even just the root and 5th. The interval between the 3rd and 7th is a flat five or known as a tritone. This is considered to be a very dissonant sound that demands resolution. Classical music is often just triad based and the tritone was used very sparingly. They caled it “Diabolis en Musica” or the devil in music.
Dominate chords want to resolve a fifth, G7 wants to go to C. The resolving tones are the 3rd and 7th. The third moves up a semitone to become the root of C the seventh moves down a semitone to become the third of C.
You dont even need the root or fifth to hear this. Play just the tritone, for the G just play B and F, move the B up a fret and the F down a fret. Now try the inversion, play the B up an octave so it is the higher pitch. Move the B up and the F down again. These are the two possible resolutions. The first eg resolve “inwardly”, the second outwardly.
Gordo
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January 24, 2013 at 2:31 am #9380
Making sense now, thanks! That’s exactly what I did last night in the looper…laid down a 12 bar blues with only the 3rd & b7. Then blues scaled over that finding different resolves in the chordal tone or notes that the present and next chord share so I can end up there on the change.
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Need to work on speed, though. Sometimes I fall behind the beat because the lick in my minds ear can’t make to my hands fast enough. 🙂 -
January 24, 2013 at 4:21 am #9382
Darby
Got a big smile from your post, I often feel I’m just a bit behind. Your right, if you think, your to late! I thought you’d loop the root fifth so the chords would’nt ‘push you around’ and you looped the 3 and 7. 😉Here are two very important chord forms that will give you the root, third and seventh. If your comping (accompanying) a rhythm part, especialy with other guitar, keys, horns etc. they help keep you nice and clean. They free up a finger for additional melody or colour notes too. You will hear them in blues, Gypsy Jazz (Django Reinhart), Jazz (Herb Ellis), pop etc.
Form I E7, X767XX FormII A7, 5X56XX
The first form is played like a B7 form at the open or nut position, first or index finger on the forth string, second on the fifth and ring finger on the third. The low string is the root so you can move it anywhere to get the chord you want.
The second form is like the bottom of a E7 open or F7 Bar chord but we will refinger it a bit. Use your index finger for the Bottom note on the sixth string. Second finger on the forth string and third finger on the third string. You can mute the 5th string with part of your index finger. Again root is lowest note or sixth string so you can move where needed.Now for the magic, dominate 7ths like to move a forth. Play form I, the E7 at the 7th fret, then form II A7 at the fifth fret, then form I again but at 5th fret to give a D7. (There are the three common 7th chords in blues in A.) BUT don’t stop play form II at the third fret (G7) then form I at the third fret (C7)
See whats happening with the thirds and sevenths? They descend chromaticaly. You can start anywhere on the fretboard, with either form and as long as you alternate forms and move 2 frets down at the right time you move the chord a forth. The third of each chord moves to the seventh of the next, and the seventh moves to the third. This 3/7 7/3 relationship is why dominants move in forths so well.
Lowering the third in either form gives you a minor seventh chord and you should get those under your fingers as well, lots of progressions use minors. Other chords are just a fret away as well, minor sixths, Major sevenths etc. experiment.
You can loop the 3 dominants in a blues form or a whole long series of chords moving a forth and solo through every key as they cycle
Try playing the rhythm as straight quarter notes, 1 2 3 4, but think swing or shuffle or any feel in your mindHave fun Gordo
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January 24, 2013 at 8:41 am #9386
Thanks Gordo, will definitely try those forms and report back. Nice to have a theory guy on here. When I started, I spent a lot of time on theory first. After my review last month a lot of the stuff I thought I understood became a lot clearer.
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I left out the root b/c the bass normally has that covered and the 3rd defines the chord. I started to resolve to the 3rd when I looked at the pentatonic scale and realized it doesn’t cover the 3rd (less over a minor chord).
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I’m glad you mentioned comping, b/c that’s where my interest lie. I went to a gig once and there was a guy there who comp’d like nobody’s business. When it came his turn to solo, the sound the band changed as the other guitarist played the bare minimum. My ears were glued to this guy and how he lead the rhythm of the band and how good they sounded when he was not soloing.
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Also nice that you mentioned jazz. Tell you the truth, I listen to more jazz than blues and my all time fav guitarist is Grant Green. A jazz guitarist I really respect told me the road to jazz is though the blues, learn that first. There’s a great video on YouTube of Eric Clapton playing Layla, with Wynton Marsalis, where he states that whenever he met the greats of blues and told him how much admires their playing they always said, “I’m just doing this until I can get a gig in jazz band.” 🙂 -
January 25, 2013 at 1:51 am #9391
Grant Green is one of the original pionners of Jazz Guitar, a great player.
Untill the introduction of the archtop, guitar was considered part of the rhythm section. They seldom played the lead, just not loud enough.
Blues and Spirituals are the father of early Jazz. Field hollers are the Grandfather.
The blues scale approximates the intervals of the African music brought to North America with the slaves. It is the micro tonal lowering of the Major third and Major Seventh. Try very slight bends on the minor third and dominate seven. You will find several partial bends, less than a semi tone, that sound very good. Piano players giss (glissando) from minor to major to approximate these intervals, and get a ‘Blue’ note.
Really our modern scale is a tempered scale, only the fourth and fifth are harmonically correct, hence the name “perfect fourth” and “perfect fifth”. Thank J.S. Bach for that.
For a listen to true thirds and sevenths give a listen to “Barbershop Harmonies”. With no insturmental backing they naturaly gravitate to a truer pitch.Give the major pentatonic scale a workout too. The Major third, sixth and ninth intervals it has are all strong melody notes and a hybridized scale of the two is a good goal to work for. The flat five interval from the blues scale is handy too. That doesn’t leave much but the #5 and b9. 🙂 Yup use them too. Off too start a new post on aug. chords.
Gordo
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January 25, 2013 at 4:05 am #9399
A-ha! While studying intervals I came across the term perfect 4th & 5th with no explanation, now I know…
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January 26, 2013 at 6:28 am #9414
You mentioned your intrest in Jazz. Here is the Great Joe Pass with a blues lesson using these chord forms exactly. Note he uses different fingers to play them. I play them with whatever fingers are handy but the ones I suggested I will expand on. He Takes the tritone that I was talking about and uses that for some nice chord subs. Flat5 subs. Uses the striaght 4 strum to a bar but makes it swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0WiAgOKMRs
Gordo
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