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February 12, 2017 at 6:42 am #62817
Did I get this right?
Attaching a PDF with the guitar centric starting point of E instead of C.First table you read by reading top down and then left thinking: Mixolydian for A would correspond to the key on the left after finding A in the “Mix” column.
Second table you read by thinking: I’m in the key of [any] and want to know what key that corresponds to in one of the modes.
Am I insane or am I starting to get this?
- "Pretty Fingers Parker"
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February 12, 2017 at 7:43 am #62820
Hi, Johan, what’s your purpose for this table?
In order to really get it, you need sharps and flats. The dorian mode of E starts on F#, for one example. If you want to just assume everyone knows all the sharps and flats, the first table is good.
The second table looks out and out backward to me. Instead of descending, the notes should rise to fit the modes.
It’s possible I woke up with my head on backward, but I don’t think so.
This stuff is already all laid out online, but you’ve got to watch everything there, ignorance, arrogance and dishonesty are hiding everywhere.
Don D.
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February 12, 2017 at 8:27 am #62823
Couldn’t agree more Don.D! fortunately there are countless free tutorials even free eBooks from credible sources .. I subscribe subscribe thumbs up like all the ones i learn from ..best to take small doses of theory and just learn by practicing all the positions up the neck until you build enough muscle memory to go to the theoretical next level ( something you don’t need to ask it just finally clicks inside your head! ..I’m still like learning the basic minor pentatonic shapes in all keys and than for example playing minor learn/observe the Dorian scale blues minor scale ..basically simple concept but eventually opens your mind to how to create and observe and be creative using corresponding key notes chord progressions be it mixing major /minor modes etc. last night i practice up and down on a cool jamtrack Dm Em ” now you shred” pretty dang fun 20 minutes track with referenced scale patterns fret charts while playing!
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February 12, 2017 at 9:10 am #62826
You are right! And I forgot to mention what I left out here! 😂
What I don’t say is the fact that you should start on the n:th step of the scale major scale depending mode. This is just to find the major base key that you should start counting from.
It made sense at the time of writing, but now I understand the confusion this will bring! I’ll do another chart!
- "Pretty Fingers Parker"
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February 12, 2017 at 9:20 am #62827
@lunkanlunkan-org, I think the first table can be read either way, ie. if I want to play myxolydian in G, I use notes of the C major scale, or in the C major scale if I start on a G note I am playing myxolydian mode (your interpretation is the most practical).
The second table would be the reverse. If I am playing G myxolydian I am using the notes of C major.
I think the table is useful to reinforce the concept but like Don says you have to fill in all the sharps or flats for a given key.
I guess if you use modes enough you just become familiar with the modes you use commonly in the most common guitar keys. Otherwise, I would just try to go back to first principles to make the conversion.
I am hoping, in time, that my brain will become familiar with what letter from A to G is 2 3, 4, 5, or 7, forward or backwards from the note I’m on, with respect to chords and modes, harmonic thirds and sixths. I think that’s the goal.
Like John says, another way to think of these modes are, what do they add to the major or minor pentatonic scales I already know.
John -
February 12, 2017 at 10:20 am #62831
If you’re using this to memorize, I think I’d arrange them in a linear manner and separate them, not in a table; that’s why I asked your purpose. It’s distracting having a bunch of letters side by side, looks like a crossword puzzle for people who can’t spell.
And I’d probably highlight the notes that are different from the closest pentatonic scale that you relate them to. As one John mentions and the other John reinforces, it’s probably best to look at them in relationship to what you already know.
Don D.
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February 12, 2017 at 10:23 am #62832
Johan,
Aside from the sharps/flat issue, the first table made sense to me, but not the second. I know this is generally the way a lot of people think about modes, but it is very confusing to me. I tend to think in terms of altered scale tones. Dorian mode is the major scale with the third and seventh flatted. Mixolydian scale is the major scale with a flat seventh.
Bob
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February 12, 2017 at 10:54 am #62834
Thank you guys. I’m kind of in the middle of grasping a bit of music theory for the first time here. I’m not fluent in chord building and I have to really think about stuff like “flatten the 7:th” and all the numbers etc.
I’m just trying to do it in what I perceived to be Brian’s approach. By that I mean using the major scale as I play the pattern on the guitar for each key, and then counting backwards to the corresponding key for a mode relative to the key the song is in and then starting on the right step of the scale in the corresponding key, and continue to play that key’s major scale.
The reason I’m kind of taking a theoretical path here is because I’m having a hard time figuring out what kind of chord progressions I should use to really hear the difference between modes. I do get that some modes are best played over a major chord and others over minor chords. But it’s a lot to keep track on counting backwards and keeping all this in my mind at the same time.
I THINK I just played some Mixolydian over a A – E chord progressions but I’m not sure.
I thought I had the hang of this last night, but now it feels like it’s slipping out of my hands again.Any tips on how to practice different scale modes in a way to really accent the difference?
Head is spinning a bit right now!
- "Pretty Fingers Parker"
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February 12, 2017 at 11:11 am #62837
The “circle of fourths”/”circle of fifths” is what you’re talking about with playing the E over A. If you see how that works it may make things simpler. So far as sounds go, (I think) you can always play the notes from the IV7 (lydian) and V7 (mixolydian) chord/scales over the I7 (tonic) in blues—but if you do, it takes the “spice” of changing scales for those chords out of play. But it’s good to know it’s available and sometimes the best thing to do. (That’s why Brian plays notes from the A or A7 chord over an E in the first 4 bars of many a blues—he could, so far as I see it, also play tones from the B7 [which then implies F# minor 7].) Circle of fourths…
And the way Bob talks about the modes as being altered scale tones is probably the way that will make it easiest to play what you learn.
Don D.
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February 12, 2017 at 12:58 pm #62840
Johan,
You might like to take a look at the Guitarwheel to help clarify the insanity! It does not give modes as such but the arrangement may help illustrate them for you. You would need to know the shifts such as a flat 7th etc of the Mixolydian mode etc but you could readily ‘see’/ imagine it mapped out on the neck from the wheels insight. Might be the aid you could use to assist clarity.
JohnStrat -
February 12, 2017 at 1:24 pm #62843
Johan, each of the five positions of a major scale are the 1st position of each of the modes. For example, if you are playing the C major scale starting at the 8th fret, 6th string you have the Ionian mode. Playing the C major scale notes starting from the sixth note or A will give the sixth mode of C major or the Aeolian mode. The Aeolian mode is the same as the A natural minor and is the relative minor key of C. When you play that box, starting on the 5th fret of the 6th string you have the A minor pentatonic box but with 2 extra notes added.
So learning the major scale positions gives you the 1st position shape for each mode and you can just move your root note to get the “key” of the mode you want. It will become apparent that these shapes are similiar to the major/minor pentatonic shapes you already know. You can extend your modal scale by joining the box adjacent to your 1st positon box, remember all the notes come from the same parent major key. You just have to resolve to the root of the mode you are playing.
I apologize, I know it is a confusing topic.
John -
February 12, 2017 at 3:27 pm #62850
I find it a challenge whether to think in the major or relative minor key. So if a song’s in C minor (Leon Russell’s Song for You, or Santana’s Europa), I can think/use C minor pentatonic or C natural minor (Aeolinan mode), OR, I can think/use Eb major scales (the relative key of C minor). Both keys (Eb major/C minor) use the same scales, but I’m never quite sure whether to think in C minor or Eb major. Anyone else have this dual/thinking dilemma?
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February 13, 2017 at 2:10 pm #62921
There are two ways to think about modes (well, at least two).
Some songs, or sections of songs, are written in a distinct mode. That means that the song uses the pitches in that mode and also strongly resolves to the root of that mode. As an example, Shady Grove, an all folk tune, is clearly a Dorian mode song.
The other way people use them is as a guide for which notes to play when improvising. Thus, when playing over a G7, I might play G mixolydian. This way of thinking has always struck me as being way too complicated.
In Brian’s method, we often refer to the major or minor pentatonic scales. But there is a difference between the lick and the scale. A scale starts at the root, and ends there. A lick can use the notes of the scale, so thinking about the scale might be useful, but it is way too easy to take that kind of thing too far.
What does this have to do with modes. If you are improvising over G7, you might go with G mixolydian. But the notes you are picking from are exactly the same as those in a C major scale. It’s easier, and simpler, just to learn and use the major scale. Then concentrate on what those notes sound like when played over a G7. Learn that, and you never need to learn all the modes for improvising. (Can still be useful for the handful of truly modal songs.)
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February 13, 2017 at 2:47 pm #62925
Cool read, I discovered playing “LIKE A ROLLING STONE” THE CHORD progression is modal in key of CM Dm Em FM GM the other two not in chord melody progression (aeolin/locrian) but it is good outline of a modal progression imho
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February 13, 2017 at 6:25 pm #62938
Lets make this simple and useful
You see a song in the Key of G with a bar of /Asus4 D7 G / (Asus4 could be A7sus4 or A11 etc.)
An A minor is the chord we would usually find in the key of G and playing G major scale (Ionian mode) would clash with the Asus.
Changes are too quick to think of changing scales for each chord, whats to do?
Play G Lydian (if you harmonize the Lydian mode you will see why)
WHY
Every chord we play comes from somewhere. When we see a chord that is not diatonic (doesn’t belong) to that key it is often called a ‘borrowed’ chord. We borrowed it from somewhere!
Every chord can be found in some harmonized scale or mode.In blues we use this idea a lot in turnarounds, as well as the basic body of a blues uses a dom7 for both the 1 and 4 chords that are not diatonic to the key. A number of modes could be used to give use the sounds we want. Mixolydian is the common choice.
Santana favors dorian mode because he likes the 4 chord as a major, simple as that.
Theres lots more on modes but this should help.
Gordo
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February 13, 2017 at 8:53 pm #62945
@lunkanlunkan-org, I was just fooling around with the Lydian mode, one I’ve never tried before and it’s so interesting the sounds you can come up with. For this jam I used only the first position box of F lydian, which is the same as the 4th box of the C major scale shapes. It’s played over an F major, G major progression.Those chords fit as the 4 and 5 of C major but they become the 1 and 2 of F lydian. F lydian is the almost the same as the major scale but the 4th is raised to a #4
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February 14, 2017 at 1:09 pm #62980
Sounds good John. Now do the same jam, over the same chords, except think G mixolydian in stead of F lydian. There might be a difference, but its a difference in how you are thinking, not the notes you are playing. By the way, I pulled my guitar out while you were playing and the note that you emphasized most was the A, at least to my ears. So maybe you were doing a natural minor jam?
I will say this, when you start to mess with F lydian over an F chord, it really brings out the sound of the #11 (b5), and not just as a passing tone, and not really as a blue note either.
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February 14, 2017 at 1:44 pm #62981
@duffyprattcomcast-net, Hi Duffy, thanks. I start by bending the A (major 3rd) up into the B (#4) on the third string and then hitting the B (#4 or #11) on the second string, played the C and then hammer-on B to the C (5th). So it was emphasising the #4 and that 1/2 step into the 5th. I think that is the distinctive sound of the Lydian mode. Agreed, G myxolydian is all the same notes and I think of it as box 2 of the F lydian mode.
I was impressed by the fact that just fooling around in a single Lydian box shape, much like you would fool around in a minor pentatonic box, could give such a different sound.
John -
February 17, 2017 at 11:04 am #63138
Awesome input guys! I’ve been putting my head down trying to learn the theory behind chords since I last updated this status. I’m beginning to understand intervals and how everything relates to the major and minor scales.
I’m on my way for the first time to really get this. I am positively absolutely sure I’m making this much harder than it is for myself. But once I emerge on the other side of the fog I will understand this thoroughly.- "Pretty Fingers Parker"
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