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December 15, 2019 at 10:57 pm #154049
Since the December Challenge is to choose some major pentatonic lesson and play and/or improv, I decided to delve further into the issue of playing improv using the major pentatonic scale. It’s not as easy or as straightforward as you think. First of all, almost none of the licks in your minor pentatonic lick library will work when played in major pent. They sound awful. Second of all, if you’re playing a 12 bar blues, for example, you can’t just keep playing the same scale every time the chord changes. No, you have play the major pent for whatever key you’re in. So if you’re playing A, D, and E for example, when you start off in A, you need to play A major pent. Then when the chord changes to D, you have to shift to D major pent. Or you could play A minor pent, but that’s another story. I had some trouble finding one of Brian’s jamtracks that would allow me to just play along and experiment with improv, but finally I chanced upon this: EP167 is perfect for jamming in major pent. It comes with 3 different jamtrack keys: A, G, and E. (Plus it’s a great lesson.)
Maybe start with the key of A jamtrack, and just play 1st position pent scale for A, then when the D chord rolls around, just play the 1st position pent scale for that. Etc. You’ll get a good feel for what the major pent scale is all about, and be ready to do some cool improv when it’s time for the challenge.
Sunjamr Steve
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December 16, 2019 at 12:18 am #154051
Oh, my… really, Steve? Now I’m really confused 😕… what about the EP260 then? Aren’t all the licks there from just F major pentatonic, the key of the lesson?
🎸JoLa
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December 16, 2019 at 2:47 am #154052
My confusion was due to Brian asking us to “to pick out any jam track from ANY of the lessons and play a major pentatonic scale lead over it. . . it’s ok to stray and play a few minor pentatonic notes here or there but try to keep the focus of your lead in the major pentatonic.” But of the 29 lessons he recommends, 10 are a mix of both the major and minor pentatonic scales.
So does that mean we should really stick to the major pentatonic and ignore the minor pentatonic in those lessons as much as possible for the purposes of this challenge OR does it mean it’s actually quite OK to mix both major and minor pentatonic scales for this challenge?
It raises in my mind an interesting musical question: Do some guitarists predominantly play in only the major pentatonic scale (I’m thinking country guitarists) while other guitarists play in predominantly only the minor pentatonic scale (I’m thinking blues guitarists)? If so, then is one entitled to dismiss one of those scales as being “not my style”? And does it follow from this that when Brian encourages us to learn to play both scales it’s to make us more rounded and knowledgeable guitarists, capable of playing in (and appreciating) various styles and to discourage us from being too rooted in one particular style? Or do simply all good guitarists, no matter their style, need to know both types of scale?
Jonathan Amos, Matsuyama, Japan
The farther one travels the less one knows.
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December 16, 2019 at 5:03 am #154055
Hi,
let me try to demystify this a little bit from my point of view:
Let’s say we are playing a standard blues with a I IV V progression in A.
The chords would the be A7, D7, and E7. (all major chords)
You could play the major scales over these chords and change the scale everytime the chord changes.
i.e A major scale over A7, D major scale over D7 and so on or the appropriate penta scale, beeing just a part of the major scale. This is playing over the chords and sounds right, but not very sophisticated, rather a bit boring.The alternative to that is playing over the chords: A major penta over the I chord and A minor pentatonic over the IV and over the V chord.
You cannot use the A-minor penta over the I chord, because that scale containes the minor third (C),
which clashes with the third of the major scale of A (C#). You get a bluesy sound though on the
I chord, if the 3rd is tweaked from minor to major with a half step bend.So the mixing of major and minor pentatonics can make it more interesting.
This is very simplified and I’m not sure, if you know what I mean, but here’s a musical example of this stuff,
I submitted a while ago. Maybe this helps:Another Approach To Mixing Major An Minor Pentatonics (EP276)
Eric
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December 16, 2019 at 6:20 am #154057
Hi,
let me try to demystify this a little bit from my point of view:
Let’s say we are playing a standard blues with a I IV V progression in A.
The chords would the be A7, D7, and E7. (all major chords)
You could play the major scales over these chords and change the scale everytime the chord changes.
i.e A major scale over A7, D major scale over D7 and so on or the appropriate penta scale, beeing just a part of the major scale.
This is playing on the chords and sounds right, but not very sophisticated, rather a bit boring.The alternative to that is playing over the chords: A major penta over the I chord and A minor pentatonic over theIV and over the V chord. You cannot use the A-minor penta over the I chord, because that scale containes the minor third (C), which clashes with the third of the major scale of A (C#). You get a bluesy sound though on the
I chord, if the 3rd is tweaked from minor to major with a half step bend.So I think the mixing of major and minor pentatonics can make it more interesting.
This is very simplified and I’m not sure, if I explained it well enough but here’s a musical example of this stuff, I submitted a while ago. Maybe this helps:
Another Approach To Mixing Major An Minor Pentatonics (EP276)
Eric
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December 16, 2019 at 7:46 am #154061
Jola, I am more in agreement with what you are stating. I call what others have eluded to is chord chasing and it is a method but not a requirement by any means. For example in a blue chord progression sometimes I don’t really pay any attention to what chord is being played. I really just listen for the turn around in the progression more than anything and try to make it sound good and as if I am starting over with a completely different improvised lick.
I think this is what I do, but I need to try it out. Lol
What Eric is saying may be what I do without even knowing it. I need check that out for sure. -
December 16, 2019 at 9:26 am #154070
I don’t really keep up with the challenges, but the suggested method is how I’ve been using AM for the past month or so. I pick a jam track in any key and improvise with major and minor pentatonic over them. I pull them into Garage Band and set up an endless loop and will play non-stop for 45 minutes. One that works especially well is EP-276 in C. I get a little back and forth with some BB King riffs in major pentatonic (and some grace notes) and Clapton riffs in the minor. Works great. If the backing track is in a major key, you can squeeze in some tasty minor pentatonic accent riffs, but only so much as your ear will want to resolve back to the major.
I’m curious what backing track you’re using where this doesn’t work?
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December 16, 2019 at 11:50 am #154079
I think this is a great challenge and will really help us learn how to use the Major Pentatonic scale. Much of the music I play and listen to is rock and country based so they often use more Major chords and tones. Yes, we can use the MAJOR Pentatonic over the I chord in a standard blues progression and then use the MINOR Pentatonic over the IV and V chord but this challenge is more about how to incorporate the Major scale.
I would typically incorporate shared chord tones on my licks as well as an occasional Minor note. For example, The A Major Pentatonic scale uses the notes A,B,C#,E,F# (R,2,3,5,6)
The notes that make up the I,IV,V chords are: A,C#,E D,F#,A E,G#,B
So, when the IV chord comes up, I will emphasize the A and F# notes (both chord tones and scale tones) When the V chord shows up, the E and B notes are emphasized.Of course, the Mixolydian mode which uses the Major 3rd and the b7 is also pretty cool.
I made a chart to help myself visualize these shapes, maybe it will help someone.
The left side shows the Minor Pentatonic shapes (look for the MINOR chords shapes within the patterns) as well as the added b5 blue note.
The right side shows the Major patterns (look for the MAJOR chord shapes (CAGED)) as well as the b3 which is very useful.
Jim
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December 16, 2019 at 11:53 am #154081
at 8:29 in this lesson EP-276 Brian clears it all up. At least for me. He says there is no right answer about when to use minor or major pentatonic. You can mix them up or use them separately.
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December 16, 2019 at 12:15 pm #154082
JRG you say above ” Yes, we can use the MAJOR Pentatonic over the I chord in a standard blues progression and then use the MINOR Pentatonic over the IV and V chord” . Are you saying that you cannot ever use the MAJOR Pentatonic over the IV and V chord ever or are you meaning uou can do it but if you do it will just not have a bluesy sound to it?
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December 16, 2019 at 1:20 pm #154085
Well good, at least I made you think about it. In the end, it’s all about avoiding conflicting notes. Taking the key of A as an example: As several people have pointed out, if you stay in A major pentatonic, when the chord changes to D7, a C is part of that chord, so the C# in the A major pent clashes and sounds horrible. And when you change to E7, a G# is part of that chord, so the A note in the A major pent clashes with that. It’s all about avoiding half-step note clashes, which is not a problem when you’re playing in minor pentatonic with minor key chords.
It’s best to test this out for yourself: Record yourself playing an A chord, and slowly play the A major pentatonic scale ascending and descending. Next, record yourself playing a D7 chord, and play the A major pent over it. And again for the E7 chord, always staying with the A major pent. Take note of what sounds good vs bad.
But it gets worse: For example, play the D pent scale in first position when the chord changes to D7. You’ll also find a clash here, because the D pent scale includes a B note, which clashes with the C note in the D7 chord.
And yes (still talking about the key of A), the minor pent works over the 4 chord, but when you come to the 5 chord (E7), there’s a clash between the B of the 5 chord, and the C of the minor pent scale.
Of course you could just forget about all this and do like the Captain of Andertons Music: He says when he hits a bad note, he just quickly moves it up or down one fret and tries to make it look like he did it on purpose. Ignorance is bliss….
Sunjamr Steve
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December 16, 2019 at 3:48 pm #154097
Well I tried that, I made a quick video with 12 bars blues in A – A7 / D7 / E7, playing a short lick in the A pent scale over and over again, and it sounds OK to me (ignoring, if possible, the quality of the video 🙂 ).
I think although there is a note that clashes with the chords tones, if you just pass through it and don’t rest on it, it goes fine. It’s even worse with the minor pent scale, when playing a minor scale over a major chord, but that doesn’t just sound OK, it actually defines the blues sound.
Please press CC down the video controls to activate the subtitles, where I show the chord progression.
Israel
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December 16, 2019 at 4:35 pm #154099
Steve,
You’re right about certain notes not sounding right against certain chords. Same can be said with the minor pentatonic scale. That’s why certain notes get tweaked.
I don’t necessarily agree that have to change major pentatonic scales to match chords. You might be thinking too much like a blues player, because many rock and country songs, which use the major pentatonic scale for soling, don’t use a lot of seventh chords. Many use none, so some of the notes that you mentioned are not being played.
Bob
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December 16, 2019 at 5:19 pm #154103
It’s only confusing when you have no idea. I know Brian teaches this enough but. he teaches this stuff but in a way not so much often enough in depth theoretically but there are many ways to map it all out to get the basic picture.. here I’ll try and explain the first fundamental basic concept.. Using the C major scale because there are no sharps or flats in the C major scale now play a the full 7 NOTES in the major C scale.. now after this play the C chord open 1`st position and just as you played the diatonic intervals do the same with chords instead of them notes (C MAJOR NEXT IS A D minor next is E minor next is F major next is G major next is A minor lastly the 7th note in scale or chord is B dim
the same can be done starting with a minor in any key of the minor scale or chords .. now how you mix major minors visa verse depends on your understanding the first fundamentals..but it is all mathematical ..if you are good at computers as simple as a calculator..It really is easy.. best tip for starters is thereof,, also practice your octaves AND CAGED SYSTEM .. i HIGHLY RECOMMEND LEARNING THE CIRCLE OF FIFTHS /FOURTHS .. another basic theory to at least get acquainted in Greek terms are the 7 modes up the fret board
As for pentatonic major or minor .. they both are just 5 note scales within the 7 note natural scale
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December 16, 2019 at 6:06 pm #154105
As Roy D Mercer would often say “Bull Butter” and that is what I’m gonna call on this conversation. Bull Butter. Lol It’s as if nobody that has posted here other than Jola even watches Brians Lessons evidently. Case in point watch EP260. If I stand to be corrected please do. I can take it. Lol
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December 16, 2019 at 8:53 pm #154117
I do know there is a Major Tom to ground control
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December 16, 2019 at 9:00 pm #154118
Well good, at least I made you think about it. In the end, it’s all about avoiding conflicting notes. Taking the key of A as an example: As several people have pointed out, if you stay in A major pentatonic, when the chord changes to D7, a C is part of that chord, so the C# in the A major pent clashes and sounds horrible. And when you change to E7, a G# is part of that chord, so the A note in the A major pent clashes with that. It’s all about avoiding half-step note clashes, which is not a problem when you’re playing in minor pentatonic with minor key chords.
It’s best to test this out for yourself: Record yourself playing an A chord, and slowly play the A major pentatonic scale ascending and descending. Next, record yourself playing a D7 chord, and play the A major pent over it. And again for the E7 chord, always staying with the A major pent. Take note of what sounds good vs bad.
But it gets worse: For example, play the D pent scale in first position when the chord changes to D7. You’ll also find a clash here, because the D pent scale includes a B note, which clashes with the C note in the D7 chord.
And yes (still talking about the key of A), the minor pent works over the 4 chord, but when you come to the 5 chord (E7), there’s a clash between the B of the 5 chord, and the C of the minor pent scale.
Of course you could just forget about all this and do like the Captain of Andertons Music: He says when he hits a bad note, he just quickly moves it up or down one fret and tries to make it look like he did it on purpose. Ignorance is bliss….
If you step out of the box..use a diminished demonic really fast and quickly step back in the box,, most armatures here won’t notice the difference ,just trust your instincts Steve
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December 17, 2019 at 12:46 pm #154142
but this challenge is more about how to incorporate the Major scale.
Jim
Absoloutly agree with what you are saying, Jim!
I just wanted to point out, that you have to be aware of playing notes that don’t fit. What I said was mainly related to a standard 12 Bar blues progression, if you stick to only one scale. If you change the scales according to the chords, it’s no problem.
You could play solely major pentatonic in one key over a complete progression: I V VIm IV, for example “Let it be” or “No woman, no cry” or many others. That fits perfectly.If it sounds good to your ears, it’s ok. That’s what I wanted to say!
Eric
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December 18, 2019 at 11:38 pm #154233
So chords are derived from scales. The classic blues chords would be dominant 7th chords. They have a flat 7. So they are derived from the mixolydian scale which is a mode of the major scale.
So the mixolydian scale has a flat 7 and is the perfect scale to use if you want to solo over a dominant seven chord progression and use major scale notes. The only drawback is, you have to use the mixolydian scale of each chord you solo over. I think that is what Steve was getting at, but it only applies to classic dominant 7 blues progressions.
I’m weak on theory, so let me know if I have it wrong. -
December 19, 2019 at 1:19 am #154235
I learned some theory from Kindle books, and one of them said that music came first, then came theroy.
Music has been divided to scales and chords to help us create music (Paul McCartney tells the story of Yesterday, where he woke up one morning with music he didn’t know, in his head, which became Yesterday. Well, not everybody is gifted! We need some system).
So the theory is a collection of guidelines to help us create music, but you don’t need to follow them. The examples are numerous. Jazz scale, for example. The blue note in Blues. In classical music we have the chromatic fantasy from Bach. Chromatic means he used all 12 notes, and it’s a superb piece. There are chords that are marked with #7 or #9, b9, etc.. and these are notes out of the scale (chord extensions) and they can sound super in the correct context. Actually, 12 bars blues goes against the guidelines, because a major scale has only one dominant, the 5’th chord, but 12 bars blues often uses all dominant chords.
And the list goes on and on.So if you learn shape 1 of the minor pent scale you can easily improvise and it will sound correct. But it’s only an advice to make it simple for us. Out of scale notes can sound good, or better, or worse. Depending how they are used.
Israel
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December 21, 2019 at 3:30 pm #154402
💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡
I’m starting to get this major pentatonic scale a little bit now! In fact, Steve – I’m glad you started this post because it sure made me think about it. My biggest issue was, how come we couldn’t play the same licks we know in minor pent. scale, over major pent. scale – the patterns are the same, just shifted 3 frets …?While I understand the theory explanations above, I have a big disconnect between (book) theory understanding and the actual playing. But I had a huge light bulb moment when I realized this –> The Major Pentatonic scale patterns are the same as Minor Pentatonic patterns BUT all the notes are in different places! In other words: the root, the 3rd, the 5th, … etc are in different positions of the patterns so OF COURSE the same licks are not going to work! Duh! It’s kind of like people from different cultures pronouncing the same word differently even though the spelling is the same…
As for the blues improvisation in major pent. scale, this is what I just learned (correct me if I’m wrong):
1. Yes, we can use just the major pent. scale in the key of the song but need to play major scale specific licks because minor scale licks won’t work (the note positions are different), or
2. We can play major pent. scale in the key of the song on the I chord but then switch to major pent. of the chord IV and V when the chords change, or
3. We can play major pent. scale in the key of the song on the I chord and then play within relative minor pent. scale over IV and V chords.
I realize that most of you experienced players knew that but for me only now things started to make sense. Another brilliant plot by Brian to throw us a curve like that 😉
🎸JoLa
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December 26, 2019 at 11:13 am #154659
Thanks great advice!
In a bit of slump so I,ll give that a go. -
December 26, 2019 at 5:40 pm #154674
Learn using the circle of fifths lol
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